Advice on buying Lithium Batteries | YBW Forum

thinking about it - it probably 7 + years - I can’t actually remember exactly when. Charging has been by shore power and alternator - Boat has not been used much over the last 4 years but before that weekly for long weekends and long sailing holidays around northern France. Have always tried not to run the batteries below 65%. Which gives me about 150 amps before recharging. I run a fridge (20 amps every 24 hours) and the normal gps and ray marine instruments. I have 2 children who like to charge their phones, tablets etc so I was thinking about adding more batteries or lithium. So I was interested in how much adjustment I would have to make if I add lithium

thinking about it - it probably 7 + years - I can’t actually remember exactly when. Charging has been by shore power and alternator - Boat has not been used much over the last 4 years but before that weekly for long weekends and long sailing holidays around northern France. Have always tried not to run the batteries below 65%. Which gives me about 150 amps before recharging. I run a fridge (20 amps every 24 hours) and the normal gps and ray marine instruments. I have 2 children who like to charge their phones, tablets etc so I was thinking about adding more batteries or lithium. So I was interested in how much adjustment I would have to make if I add lithium

Bowvthruster, electric windlass, solar? These would makes a difference on how you wire lithium. If you have a bowthruster and windlass, wiring these from the engine battery would make sense. Solar would wire to the lithium. The alternator can't charge the lithium directly so you would need a DC/DC charger. In addition, you would want a smart shunt to monitor SOC of the lithium. Hope this helps

thinking about it - it probably 7 + years - I can’t actually remember exactly when. Charging has been by shore power and alternator - Boat has not been used much over the last 4 years but before that weekly for long weekends and long sailing holidays around northern France. Have always tried not to run the batteries below 65%. Which gives me about 150 amps before recharging. I run a fridge (20 amps every 24 hours) and the normal gps and ray marine instruments. I have 2 children who like to charge their phones, tablets etc so I was thinking about adding more batteries or lithium. So I was interested in how much adjustment I would have to make if I add lithium

I wonder if my bolding is the root of your problem; lack of use.

@geem knows I am not a fan of lithium on 'lightly used boats' in the UK as I don't see any advantage in using the technology.

I changed all of my batteries to AGMs as they can take a faster charge and there is no risk of leaks should one ever crack, added a Victron power management system; shunt, shore power, battery sensor (voltage and temp) and a MTTP, plus 200 watts of solar. I now really understand my power usage.

Adding solar means that the batteries are constantly at float when I'm not using the boat rather than being charged when down at the marina. The major driver to solar was moving from a marina to a river mooring.

It might be worth costing a new lithium set up against replacing what you have and adding a good power management system (I like Victron) and a bit of solar.

Note: I have 390Ah of house batteries and struggle to use an average of 10 amps per hour while underway. The solar usually keeps up with my usage. The squeaky has left home, but from time to time I have crew who are surgically attached to their phones, and prefer my beer warm.

I wonder if my bolding is the root of your problem; lack of use.

@geem knows I am not a fan of lithium on 'lightly used boats' in the UK as I don't see any advantage in using the technology.

I changed all of my batteries to AGMs as they can take a faster charge and there is no risk of leaks should one ever crack, added a Victron power management system; shunt, shore power, battery sensor (voltage and temp) and a MTTP, plus 200 watts of solar. I now really understand my power usage.

Adding solar means that the batteries are constantly at float when I'm not using the boat rather than being charged when down at the marina. The major driver to solar was moving from a marina to a river mooring.

It might be worth costing a new lithium set up against replacing what you have and adding a good power management system (I like Victron) and a bit of solar.

Note: I have 390Ah of house batteries and struggle to use an average of 10 amps per hour while underway. The solar usually keeps up with my usage. The squeaky has left home, but from time to time I have crew who are surgically attached to their phones, and prefer my beer warm.

If I had a small cruisers for use in the UK in would definitely have lithium. Lithium batteries are smaller lighter and will last many, many years. Far longer than lead. When space is at a premium on small boats, lithium allows you to have lots of Ah in a small space and you can use way more of the battery capacity than you can with lead. You would need the same good quality power management system for lithium. In many ways lithium is a better fit on small simple boats as you are unlikely to have large loads such as powerful inverter or electric cooking so you get a far simpler installation.
You can charge them up more quickly than lead with a DC/DC charger running at 50% of the alternator rating and you don't need to worry about sulfation or getting them to 100% SOC on a regular basis. For a small cruiser, it's actually quite a lot of spending to upgrade to Lithium.
LifePO4 drop-ins don't seem to be intended for engine starting.
Mate of mine has a typical two-battery cruiser, his engine battery has just 'called time'.
No drama as the house battery is a leisure Lead acid, so easily capable of starting the diesel.

A lot of people don't really need any more than a good leisure battery and a solar panel or two.
Other people seem to get value out of big battery banks and hundreds of pounds worth of charging and monitoring kit.

It's something to be aware of, engine battery, with solar float charging, gave no warning, it went from apparently happy to dead in an afternoon. It's not like a car when slow cranking will give you a week's warning to order a new battery.
So I think back up for the starter battery is an absolute must, unless you're always going to be able to sail on to every mooring etc.

For a small cruiser, it's actually quite a lot of spending to upgrade to Lithium.
LifePO4 drop-ins don't seem to be intended for engine starting.
Mate of mine has a typical two-battery cruiser, his engine battery has just 'called time'.
No drama as the house battery is a leisure Lead acid, so easily capable of starting the diesel.

A lot of people don't really need any more than a good leisure battery and a solar panel or two.
Other people seem to get value out of big battery banks and hundreds of pounds worth of charging and monitoring kit.

It's something to be aware of, engine battery, with solar float charging, gave no warning, it went from apparently happy to dead in an afternoon. It's not like a car when slow cranking will give you a week's warning to order a new battery.
So I think back up for the starter battery is an absolute must, unless you're always going to be able to sail on to every mooring etc.

You can have a link from lithium to charge an engine battery but if its duff, that might not help. If you had lithium battery you built yourself, you can start from the lithium by bypassing the bms. This would only be for emergency use but lithium is capable of huge amps

If I had a small cruisers for use in the UK in would definitely have lithium. Lithium batteries are smaller lighter and will last many, many years. Far longer than lead. When space is at a premium on small boats, lithium allows you to have lots of Ah in a small space and you can use way more of the battery capacity than you can with lead. You would need the same good quality power management system for lithium. In many ways lithium is a better fit on small simple boats as you are unlikely to have large loads such as powerful inverter or electric cooking so you get a far simpler installation.
You can charge them up more quickly than lead with a DC/DC charger running at 50% of the alternator rating and you don't need to worry about sulfation or getting them to 100% SOC on a regular basis.

The OP already has (probably) sufficient capacity for his needs so the smaller and lighter is a bit of a red herring - although valid if one wants greater capacity but are limited in space. The vast majority of UK cruisers with a usage pattern like the OP manage very well with LA, particularly with a bit of solar. Note he says he uses shorepower and does not seem to spend long periods at anchor.

As ever before diving in and telling him he needs lithium the best thing is to suggest a power audit - consumption and power generation then number of cycles a year. Remember, unlike you weekend/holiday cruisers are lucky if they get more than 60 days a year on board reliant on the boat's power- and even then many of these with a young family will likely be on shorepower. The 800+ cycles of AGMs give a life of 10-15 years.

BTW there is no suggestion from the OP that he wants to exploit the potential of lithium by spending the extra on inverters, electric cooking etc. Just replacing his aging bank

Bowvthruster, electric windlass, solar? These would makes a difference on how you wire lithium. If you have a bowthruster and windlass, wiring these from the engine battery would make sense. Solar would wire to the lithium. The alternator can't charge the lithium directly so you would need a DC/DC charger. In addition, you would want a smart shunt to monitor SOC of the lithium. Hope this helps

Yep I have bowthruster and anchor windlass, and clipper shunt battery monitor, no solar yet. I have 40 ft van de stadt, and the batteries are placed near the areas they are needed. So anchor windlass and bow thrusters have the domestic batteries at the front of the boat and engine battery is at the back of the boat. So lots of battery wiring to consider if I went lithium. I am assuming I need to change my victron battery charger as well?

The OP already has (probably) sufficient capacity for his needs so the smaller and lighter is a bit of a red herring - although valid if one wants greater capacity but are limited in space. The vast majority of UK cruisers with a usage pattern like the OP manage very well with LA, particularly with a bit of solar. Note he says he uses shorepower and does not seem to spend long periods at anchor.

As ever before diving in and telling him he needs lithium the best thing is to suggest a power audit - consumption and power generation then number of cycles a year. Remember, unlike you weekend/holiday cruisers are lucky if they get more than 60 days a year on board reliant on the boat's power- and even then many of these with a young family will likely be on shorepower. The 800+ cycles of AGMs give a life of 10-15 years.

BTW there is no suggestion from the OP that he wants to exploit the potential of lithium by spending the extra on inverters, electric cooking etc. Just replacing his aging bank

I didn't dive in and tell him he needed lithium. He said he was interested in lithium. Trying reading whatt I said. I actually answered Sandys post not the OP. I also said that if I had a small cruiser in the UK I would have lithium for all the benefits I pointed out. I actually asked the OP what other systems he had before answering his post

Yep I have bowthruster and anchor windlass, and clipper shunt battery monitor, no solar yet. I have 40 ft van de stadt, and the batteries are placed near the areas they are needed. So anchor windlass and bow thrusters have the domestic batteries at the front of the boat and engine battery is at the back of the boat. So lots of battery wiring to consider if I went lithium. I am assuming I need to change my victory battery charger as well?

Converting your boat to lithium would not be straightforward. It would also be expensive. Due to the inrush current attributed to large DC motors such as bowthrusters and windlasses, you cannot simply install lithium batteries and power these devices from the lithium as the high inrush current load can/may damage the BMS. You would have to use a lithium battery that has an external BMS like an REC where the load doesn't pass through the BMS. These BMS cost circa £750, not including the battery.
I have fitted lithium to Jeanneau and Beneteau 45 footers where all bowthruster and windlass loads were wired from the engine battery by the factory. In this case, installation of lithium for the domestic load is straight forward. All that was needed was the lithium batteries, a Victron smart shunt and a DC/DC converter to charge the lithium from the engine battery when the engine was running. Both boats already had good solar installations with Victron mppts.
With regard to using lithium for engine starting, I don't believe this is a good idea. Lead is super cheap for starter use. Alternators are designed to charge lead batteries so it's already set up for this type of battery and there is little benefit of lithium here.
If you were keen on going down the lithium route I would consider whether it is possible to run you bow thruster and windlass from the engine battery then running your domestic loads from dedicated lithium batteries. This way you can take advantage of relatively cheap lithium batteries with simple lithium BMS.

Lithium batteries are starting become the new normal in many industries. Whether you are replacing your old Sealed Lead Acid batteries starting off new,  Amped Outdoors has developed a lineup of batteries to fit just about every individuals needs.  Here are the best tips for ensuring your batteries will last as long as they are intended:

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BMS

Yes, every Amped Outdoors battery has a built in BMS. The BMS is the heart of a lithium battery. They protect the battery as well as help prolong your battery life. The BMS is the reason a lithium battery can last 5x longer than traditional Lead Acid batteries. 

Each lithium battery has a BMS designed for that batteries intended use. Any use outside of the intended operation can cause a battery BMS to trigger protecting it. Do not try to draw more power than the batteries rated current draw. If you are using one of our batteries for an application outside of marine applications, it is advised to reach out to us first to ensure it will perform properly.

Determining Size/Discharging

So many lithium companies stress how their batteries can be drained 100% safely! Although this is true , it is encourage to size your usable properly so you are not draining your battery to this state on a regular basis. It is best to charge your battery before each use and you DO NOT need to drain your battery before charging. It is always better to size up, charge when you can which in turn will give you more cycles out of your lithium batteries. 

Battery Actual Capacities

Lithium Batteries have a higher useable capacity than standard Seal Lead Acid Batteries. Flooded batteries typically have 50% useable capacity and AGM up to 80% of their rated Amp Hours. Lithium batteries on the market today should range from 95% to 100% usable capacity. Many Amped Outdoors batteries are made to have higher capacity than rated on their package giving you the longest runtimes per size in the industry today. 

Mounting/Storage

Many of our batteries come in standard sizes you will find with Sealed Lead Acid Batteries. Some batteries we sell bags for, some people choose to strap a battery down, some choose trays or a box and some choose an ammo box. Honestly, these are many options but please, secure your products properly and try to keep them from the elements! Yes our batteries have a high IP waterproof rating, but still to this day, the #1 reason a battery fails is due to improper storage, installation and lack of maintenance. Lithium batteries can be mounted in any orientation if they are properly installed. See Maintenance tips below. 

Link to Wirentech

Lithium batteries should be stored between 40-80 degrees F. When not using for the off season, please see our article and video on how to properly store a lithium battery. 

Running 12V batteries in series or buying true 24v/36V batteries?

When all possible, buy the true voltage battery you need vs wiring batteries in series to achieve higher voltage! When batteries are wired in series, they need their own 12V charging source to ensure each battery charges 100%. 

Proper Lithium Maintenance

Yes, lithium batteries require far less maintenance than AGM and other Lead Acid products. Lithium batteries do need to be well cared for to get the full life out of them. Lithium products are built to last 5-10years of regular use as long as they are properly cared for. Here are tips to help get the full life out of our batteries. 

1) Installation: #1 reason of failure of lithium batteries. It is crucial to ensure you do the following: Install in a safe place away from elements. Use the proper battery tray, box and straps as needed. Try to keep in a place that will not get submerged or too wet. Our batteries have a HIGH IP rating but water can cause corrosion and premature wear if not found early. Make sure your wiring is clean, proper cables and connections are used, and then use dielectric grease on all connections to prevent corrosion. Check your connections regularly to make sure they are secured and tight. 

2) Charging: Proper charging is huge for lithium and by far, different than your standard Lead Acid batteries. First, do not charge lithium batteries below freezing. All 12.8V LiFePO4 batteries require a 14.6v CC/CV charge (BULK) and then when fully charged, rest to about 13.5V+. Most AGM chargers are capable of doing this as long as their float is at 13.5V or less (float is useless on LiFePO4 Batteries). Our NMC batteries require our 16.8V charger only. Never mount or charge your lithium batteries outdoors without the proper on board waterproof rated charger. You never want to disulfate a lithium battery. The best chargers for marine applications are available through us or listed below:

• Minnkota Precision (AGM MODE) - New Lithium Chargers in !
• NOCO GEN5 or GENPRO (available on our website)
• Power Pole - only with dedicated 24v and 36V batteries (not 12V in series)
• Dual Pro - Only when provisioned for LiFePO4 lithium
• Dual Pro - New chargers in have lithium detection

For other charging devices, check with us for compatibility. 

3) Checking Connectors Regularly: Check tightness of your connections (on bolt style battery connectors). Loose connections can cause increased resistance, overheating of terminals (melting possible) and corrosion. Use dielectric grease on all connections to prevent corrosion buildup and always ensure your battery bolts are tightened properly using bolt-lock washer-washer then connections in that order. 

4) Storage: Never store a lithium battery fully depleted and do not keep at 100% charged if storing for a longer period of time. First, storing at a depleted state will cause a battery to drop below recommended voltage and cells can go into a state that cannot be recovered. Second, lithium do not like to be stored at a 100% charge. This is very different than older battery technologies. Lithium like to breath and the best way to store a battery is above 30% charge and try to  put a short charge on the battery every 60-90 days if storing for a long period of time. It is recommended to store a battery in a safe, cool and dry place, preferably 40-80 degrees F. 

If you are looking for more details, kindly visit Lithium Power Battery.